How to help a friend or family member going through a separation - The Divorce Podcast

In this episode Kate was joined by Verity Glasgow, CEO of the relationship charity, Oneplusone to discuss friends and family in the context of relationship breakdown.

Episode #88: How to help a friend or family member going through a separation

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About the guest:

OnePlusOne has more than fifty years of experience in creating evidence-based early intervention resources to help people build and maintain healthy relationships.

Verity is committed to the digital transformation of relationship support services and has been a driving force behind some of OnePlusOne’s most recent projects, including the rollout of digital conflict reduction interventions and securing government funding to develop a new app to support separating parents.

This episode is aimed at friends and family of anyone separating or going through a divorce so please share this episode with your network as most of us know someone who is splitting up.

Kate and Verity begin this episode by touching on what happens when someone goes through a separation. They explore the role that friends and family play and the danger of misplaced advice. Kate and Verity discuss how others 'war stories' often lead to rash decision-making because of fear.

With a lack of information in the public domain on how to help friends and family who are separating, they end this episode by looking at five things to keep in mind when talking to people about their separation, with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way.

Episode transcript:

Kate Daly: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a Relationship Counsellor, Divorce Specialist and Co-Founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating Couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, and tips. With the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way.

Kate Daly: In this episode, I was joined by Verity Glasgow, CEO of relationship charity, One Plus One, to discuss friends and family in the context of relationship breakdown. One Plus [00:01:00] One has more than 50 years’ experience in creating evidence based early intervention resources to help people build and maintain healthy relationships.

Kate Daly: Verity is committed to the digital transformation of relationship support services and has been the driving force behind some of OnePlus One's most recent projects, including the rollout of a digital conflict resolution intervention and securing government funding for the development of a new app to support separating parents.

Kate Daly: This episode is aimed at friends and family of anyone separating or going through a divorce. So please share the episode with your network, as most of us know someone who's splitting up. We begin the episode by touching on what happens when someone goes through a separation, and then we explore the role that friends and family play, and the danger of misplaced advice.

Kate Daly: We're so influenced by others war stories, and Verity and I discuss how this often leads to rash decision making because of fear, [00:02:00] with a lack of information in the public domain on how to help our friends and family who are separating. We end the episode by looking at five things to keep in mind.

Kate Daly: Verity shares OnePlusOne's specialist approach to helping people start conversations with separating friends and family, with more confidence, and with the goal of helping society to end relationships in a kinder and better way. If you loved this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform.

Kate Daly: Lovely to see you, Verity, and welcome to the podcast.

Verity Glasgow: Great to see you, Kate. Thanks for the invitation.

Kate Daly: It's really nice to catch up again. It's been a while since we've spoken. I know this podcast is all about divorce and separation and your skill set and your charity are all about strengthening relationships.

Kate Daly: So, let's start by looking at what happens to a relationship when people decide to end it, or they've been told that it's going to end. [00:03:00] Where does the stuff that you do come into that? Let's talk about the emotional journey that people go on first when they're at the end of a relationship.

Verity Glasgow: Yeah, yeah, it was a really good place to start.

Verity Glasgow: I mean, I suppose we would say, you know, no two breakups are the same, are they? I mean, you know, we're, I mean, you know this better than anyone. We're all different. We all experience things differently. Some of us pick up on the signs of things and some of us don't. And I think that, you know, whether it was you who initiated the breakup or whether it was your partner who did, you're going to feel a range of feelings and, you know, we're familiar with the grief cycle, the sadness, anger, loss, betrayal, sometimes even relief.

Verity Glasgow: And then sometimes guilt feeling the relief and you know, all of the different emotions and there's not a kind of linear way of, of, of kind of moving through those feelings. So that's really difficult because you're generally going to be feeling those feelings at a different time, not, not the same [00:04:00] time.

Verity Glasgow: At One Plus One, we talk about, we've done some research into emotional readiness. So, we talk about emotional readiness, which is basically thinking about someone's emotional adaptation to their relationship breakdown. So, looking at how they've kind of adapted and how they're dealing with the emotions that they're feeling.

Verity Glasgow: And we know, for example, if one person isn't emotionally ready, um, one person is. Then that's going to make things quite challenging and make processing through the separation in an amicable way quite challenging because generally the person who isn't emotionally ready could get quite entrenched and quite kind of, you know, not able to process and move forward.

Verity Glasgow: So, we know that there are many, many different emotions people will be feeling. And we are kind of here in what we do to support people to basically improve their adaptations to improve their emotional readiness by, you know, understanding, getting a broader [00:05:00] understanding of what it is that's happened. I mean, there are so many questions if, again, if you're the person who hasn't ended the relationship, why what's happened, you know, all of those things.

Verity Glasgow: So, so yeah, there's a lot of things to work through. And I suppose we would also say that you know. giving yourself time to grieve the loss of the relationship is, is really, really important as well.

Kate Daly: What's the impact of Friends and Family on sort of emotional readiness?

Verity Glasgow: I think Friends and Family lens is such a helpful one to look at this through actually, because some of those things that you hear are almost completely out of your control, aren't they?

Verity Glasgow: You know, suddenly you're going through this difficult time and Everybody's the expert or everyone's got some advice, you know, or a war story, a war story. Oh, my goodness. Or also, you know, sometimes it's too much for friends and family and it holds a mirror up potentially to something that's going on in their own [00:06:00] lives.

Verity Glasgow: And they actually, they can't cope with it. And, and so you might find that. Some people who might have been quite close to you, start to avoid you. So, you've got the people going two feet in with their stories, and then you've got the people pulling right out, and suddenly they're not connecting with you.

Verity Glasgow: So, I think in some ways, you know, losing other relationships at the same time as losing this significant relationship could obviously impact, you know, your emotional state and how you're adapting within these very, very changing circumstances. I think that also where people do come in with their war stories, it can become very negatively charged.

Verity Glasgow: And even when a relationship has broken down, and it doesn't appear to be, you know, too much conflict going on there, it's still not a smooth process. And then obviously we have much more highly charged breakups as well. So, bringing any [00:07:00] negatively charged kind of help into those conversations, I mean, that's just going to up the ante.

Verity Glasgow: So for someone who might be doing quite well at trying to progress and move through the emotions that they're dealing with and what's coming up for them, something could come in from left field, you know, from a friend or, you know, uncle or, you know, parent, and that could just throw you off. Because already your foundation is, is rocked, you know, you're not standing on the ground that you thought you were on, things have changed, the rug might have been pulled from under you.

Verity Glasgow: And so, you might start to have self-doubt and doubt in terms of the decisions that you're making and how you're progressing through things. So, I think that kind of unhelpful commentary could actually impact your adaptation really quiet.

Kate Daly: significantly. It's really tricky, isn't it? Because, you know, it, it's one thing to go through it yourself, [00:08:00] but then to be the bystander is a completely different thing, isn't it?

Kate Daly: And to, to know what the right thing is to do or to say, what to offer, when to say things is really tricky. And it's not something that we tend to talk about much as a society, do we? There are lots of forums and lots of things that talk about divorce from the individual's perspective. But you're right, the friends and family lens, something that we really wanted to try and bring some attention to in the work that we do is really under talked about and underexposed.

Kate Daly: And I guess I'm wondering, is there a code of conduct, if that's not too strong a word that we can start to talk about as professionals and that we can start to put out there to help people learn and know how to navigate because it's quiet. You know, when it's the first person in your group that goes through it, it's really kind of quite discombobulating, isn't it?

Kate Daly: You, it does rock. The foundation of the group, it does [00:09:00] make everybody in the group start to think about their own relationships and then often you get a situation where, you know, you lose half of the couple, you know, people tend to align around one person or another, often along gender lines as well, not always, but often along gender lines, and then it, it sort of has quite a big ripple effect.

Kate Daly: So, I just wonder what you think about those things.

Verity Glasgow: Yeah, it really does. And I think that it's, it's so brilliant that you're talking about the friends and family support and it links into, I think, you know, what our two organizations have signed up to in terms of the parents promise as well, who are doing a brilliant job at creating a better culture around this better culture around talking about it and supporting friends and family.

Verity Glasgow: I think there's, there's lots to say around this, isn't there, from a kind of, you know, work perspective, personal perspective and what have you. So, in terms of a code of conduct, we have developed something, in fact, to help managers talk to [00:10:00] colleagues that they support around separation process. But actually, I think that really, it's, it's, it's just much more broadly sort of five things to keep in mind, I think, when people are going through this.

Verity Glasgow: And I think that it's, it's quite a helpful sort of almost like set of rules to stop yourself from jumping in with two feet with your own stories and, and to hold back on kind of saying the things like, well, I never liked her anyway, you know, and it was when she said this and that. So, I think it's quite good to sort of, um, if you can just stop for a moment and think so what we kind of cover off are the first thing, which is keeping an open mind.

Verity Glasgow: And so, you haven't walked in their shoes, you know, you don't know what's been going on really, probably in their relationship. And so, I think keeping an open mind is really, really important. They're going to be different stages as well. We've talked about the process, haven't we? you know, things might feel like they're going well and then they might take 10 steps back again.

Verity Glasgow: So, kind of being open minded and also remembering, [00:11:00] like we talked about in terms of stress, if your friend's going through a stressful situation, they're probably not going to respond to you in the way they normally would. So, if you're getting some of that negativity, just hold back, you know, and appreciate, keep your mind open.

Verity Glasgow: They're going through a difficult situation. And then the next thing, which is the obvious thing, the obvious thing, which is listening. So, listen, it seems really, really simple, but be there for the person. And I think, you know, also don't be afraid to approach the person. You know, some people kind of skirt around issues like this.

Verity Glasgow: So, I think, you know, don't be afraid to go. approach the person and ask how they are, you know, but then you've got to be ready to offer them the support. It's

Kate Daly: similar with bereavement, isn't it? Where if people say, just, we tend to shy away from having the conversation or asking how people are because we're frightened of the response.

Kate Daly: But I guess what you're saying is it's the same.

Verity Glasgow: Just ask. It's a hundred percent. Just, just ask, just how are you, you [00:12:00] know, and also kind of, don't be afraid to not really know what to say because ultimately if you haven't been through the situation, it's almost okay to say. I don't know how you must be feeling.

Verity Glasgow: I really can't imagine it, you know. And I think also being patient. We talked about time, you know, we've got to be patient in situations like this. So, giving them time is really important. And I think a really helpful thing as someone who's supporting someone going through separation is being able to support them practically.

Verity Glasgow: So how can you accommodate them? What can you do? So, for example, if they've got kids and, you know, they need some help with practicalities like pickups. And previously, you know, they were doing this together as a couple and they're having some difficulty doing this. Step in. I'll pick them up. You know, I'll do this.

Verity Glasgow: Help them with some of the practical elements of getting used to a single life or going through a separation, which actually, you know, will be quite daunting. And I think again about the kind of accommodating, accommodating nature of things as well, is [00:13:00] if they're talking about having a conversation with their ex, maybe say.

Verity Glasgow: Do you want to practice with me, you know, talk through it together or write something down? Have you written it down? Because if you write it down, it might be clearer. So just offering that kind of. practical things that, you know, might be able to help them. Final thing is culture of support. I mean, it's what we talked about, the parents promise what they're really trying to do.

Verity Glasgow: We talk about it with employers, that it's not just about asking somebody how they are, but it's about creating a culture where someone can tell you how they are, and someone can talk to you about something that feels difficult. And I suppose in friendships and in families, that's about you, you know, you are being open really and creating that kind of supportive environment for a friend.

Kate Daly: I think as well with that, it's that technique of asking twice, isn't it? So, we are almost programmed to automatically respond to the, hi, how are you? At the beginning of a [00:14:00] conversation with, Oh, I'm great. Thanks. Fine. How are you? It's almost just part of the conversational pattern. So, I think just taking a pause and saying, no, really, how are you today allows people and gives people the space just to check in with themselves almost and to offers them the space then to say how they are really feeling rather than just responding to that sort of conversational pattern.

Verity Glasgow: You're so right because you're so autopilot, aren't you? It almost gives them the opportunity to say. Well, actually, gosh, how am I? How am I today? You know, definitely. And I think if your first response to keep that openness can be nonjudgmental, you know, not like objective, you know, nonjudgmental, just That first response, creating that openness will then allow them to kind of move forward and just kind of speak for themselves and talk about what's going on for them.

Verity Glasgow: Yes,

Kate Daly: because we shouldn't assume they're going to feel awful. [00:15:00] They might be on a good day. It's just about creating some real space rather than falling into the conversational habit of. of affirming, yeah, I'm fine. And then that's all sort of moving on to the next thing or whatever. And I like what you're saying as well before, I think we're all very good sometimes at offering vague help.

Kate Daly: Let me know if there's anything I can do, which is all, you know, very nice and all the rest of it. But when you're in these situations, and I speak from personal experience, sometimes You just need someone to offer something specific and practical, not some vague offer of help because it's hard to ask for help for lots of people.

Kate Daly: You don't know what help you might need, but someone actually suggesting something can be a real lifeline and it helps you get into the habit of knowing it's okay to ask for help as well because for some people it's hard and we have to train ourselves to ask. So, I really like the idea of offering something specific because it's easier to say.

Kate Daly: Actually, [00:16:00] no, I don't need that, but I do need this when someone's asked something specific rather than just generally saying, oh, just let me know if you need any help. It's

Verity Glasgow: really hard. It's so vague. Yeah. I mean, I, I think also, you know, just turning up at someone's house and saying, oh, it's just passing, just popped in to say hi, you know.

Verity Glasgow: Because often I think people can feel as well that they're intruding on someone else's life, you know, when they're kind of going through this. And so almost bringing them into your life and saying, your part of my life and I'm here for you, is also a kind of real way of creating that openness and creating that place for them to then be able to ask for help if they need it.

Verity Glasgow: Yeah.

Kate Daly: Now what about if people ask, as a friend, if they, if you say to your friend something very specific about whether or not people should stay or go, where do we go with that? So, if someone asks you a really direct question, I'm thinking about leaving my husband, what do you think, Verity? Are you answering that or are you, or are you steering me in a [00:17:00] different direction?

Verity Glasgow: Yeah, that's so hard. It's so hard and it's definitely, I've definitely had that question. I'm sure you've had it. It's really difficult, isn't it? I think that it's, it's got to come down to remaining objective, listening and helping them to process their own thoughts, because ultimately, they're the person that makes the decision.

Verity Glasgow: They're the person with the knowledge. You. And we know the power of listening, like we know how powerful it can be if someone really listens to you and then really helps you to reflect your thoughts back. And so, I think it's just holding really tight onto your opinions, putting them to the side and really helping that person to process what that decision is that they're trying to make.

Verity Glasgow: So, if it's a decision about, you know, I'm just on the edge, you know, should I give it another go, or should I leave? You might then start to say, well, tell me about what you've [00:18:00] done so far to. To try, like what things have you done? What have you put in place? Let's talk about those things, you know, you might just get them just to process all of the things that they've done that have been good and process, you know, so what, so what about the other side?

Verity Glasgow: So, what's pushed you? What's been the straw for this camel's back at this particular stage? Get them just to talk through it. So you might just ask them a couple of questions around what it is they've said and then you would hope that that would elicit a really long monologue of them processing their thoughts and feelings and then kind of let them sit with it and be there again, you know, also another thing that we sort of talk about as well is keeping your sort of virtual door open as well.

Verity Glasgow: So, you know, we, obviously we've been through difficult COVID times, and I think it's made it easier for us to. Kind of have calls with friends, video calls and things like that. And so, [00:19:00] making sure that you're leaving that door open. And I know that we're all completely drowning in WhatsApp and messages and emails and stuff.

Verity Glasgow: But almost just saying to yourself, right, this week I really need to watch out for messages coming in from this person. I need to make sure I respond to that person because I know they're going through this. So just being a bit more responsive and having your door open for a particular time when you know someone's going through that is kind of just like keeping that virtual door open and making sure you're there for them if they need it.

Kate Daly: I think the big thing with what you're saying is we need to remain in listening mode. You made that excellent point earlier on, didn't you? It's about. Being on receive mode rather than transmit mode, isn't it? And like what you said there effectively, if someone asks you such a direct question, giving your opinion isn't particularly helpful because it's not your decision.

Kate Daly: It's more about ensuring that you remain in that facilitative, open, [00:20:00] approachable mode for them. And they can use you as a sounding board to process their own thoughts, feelings, and emotions. They're not asking you. Although they're kind of asking you in a weird way, but they're not actually wanting you to give your opinion.

Kate Daly: They're, they're wanting to be able to try and work this through and work this out, aren't they, by the

Verity Glasgow: sounds of it? Yeah, and I think also giving them some agency in making their own decision. So, you know, asking for an opinion, that's all very well and good. But actually, I think also kind of going back and saying, this is not my decision to make, you know.

Verity Glasgow: This isn't my life, it's your life. And in just a really supportive way of saying that, kind of, almost, oh, right, yes, this is my decision. You know, it's, when you've had a lot of commentary and a lot of people giving you their opinions, you're not sorting through their opinions and deciding which opinion to go with.

Verity Glasgow: Your opinion is the only one, really, that matters. And that is the one that you [00:21:00] have to sort through ultimately. And I know that.

Kate Daly: you give couples going through a relationship breakdown a lot of support and help. Verity, what sort of support do you give and do you help people with when they're in this really tricky space?

Verity Glasgow: So, when couples are going through a separation, so we would have an intervention that we call getting it right for children. Because this is, you know, for us, this would be very much about keeping the children in the centre of your decision making, um, not upping the ante in any way and making all of your decisions based on your children and moving through the process in that way.

Verity Glasgow: And we would be kind of trying to understand how emotionally ready they are, and then look at what we can provide to be able to kind of help you to see it differently, so see it from the other person's point of view. And using sort of different content, videos, animations, and all those sorts of things to help people improve their ability to see it differently, improve their ability [00:22:00] to listen.

Verity Glasgow: And obviously in this point, it's listening to the other, you know, the ex-partner, partner. And this would be about then with that kind of understanding and improvement in seeing it from someone else's point of view, listening, trying out some communication and seeing whether that impacts their behaviour and do they then become less reactive because you're being kind of more open and starting to kind of see that it's obviously in no way linear and certainly isn't at the end of five steps suddenly you're able to collaborate.

Verity Glasgow: But it is about improving the communication based on keeping the child at the centre of your decision making,

Kate Daly: basically. So, we've got this idea that there are certain, I guess, tools and techniques you're using to help people collaborate to keep the children at the centre. And then you've got the couple themselves who are processing the emotional journey and going through that sort of [00:23:00] grief curve.

Kate Daly: And then you've got friends and family sitting around them who are trying to support them going through that. And I guess it's about supporting. them as a couple as much as it is supporting your individual friend, isn't it? And I just wonder again, are there things that friends and family can do to help support a couple as they are changing the way that they live and doing the bits where they're trying to organize the children and sort out their housing and all of that kind of stuff?

Kate Daly: As friends, can we help both people or do we effectively have to pick a side and just focus on one person? It feels trickier to help a couple than to help an individual.

Verity Glasgow: Definitely. And also, you know, depending on how bad a space the couple are in, in terms of their own communication with each other.

Verity Glasgow: I think it's really difficult because, you know, like you say, you might, uh, I think you said earlier, we, we sometimes separate along gender lines, you know, people choose a side and that's if they're getting very judgmental and negative about things. I think that [00:24:00] You know, we might naturally gravitate to one of the couple because they might be our longstanding friend and we just met the other person through the friend, you know, there may be, you know, there may be kind of natural sort of gravitation.

Verity Glasgow: I think that in this sort of situation, the most important thing you could probably do as a friend or a family member is to model that positive, collaborative. behaviour and communication. So, I mean, obviously if there are children involved and the children see you as a friend communicating positively and collaboratively with the other partner, so their mom or their dad, who you're not, not that friendly with, they can see, you know, it's, uh, you're modelling that.

Verity Glasgow: really positive behaviour. So, nothing's changed. Obviously, things have changed, but you know, it, it feels like this is okay. And that obviously goes for grandparents, you know, extended family and that kind of thing. So just modelling that nonjudgmental, non-bad mouthing, you know, [00:25:00] all of the things that you, you might want to do, but you're not doing and you're just communicating really well and really clearly and positively.

Verity Glasgow: And I think that that's probably one of the best things that we can do is just modelling that behaviour because even if that behaviour isn't happening yet between the couple. They are going to hopefully pick up on that between them. So, they might kind of think, oh, this person's reached out to me and said, do you want to go for a drink?

Verity Glasgow: You know, and actually they were more friendly with your ex and that might actually have a positive impact. And you're not there to talk about them. You're not there to bad mouth, you're not there to. Get the gossip on what's going on their side, you're actually just there to check out how they're doing, you know, and it might be as simple as that, and it might be kind of create, and I think it goes back to kind of creating this openness and this culture of kind of, it's okay to talk about this, I'm here to listen, and you're not actually the person who's taking sides, but you're just reaching out.

Verity Glasgow: And you might get a no, but you know.

Kate Daly: [00:26:00] But you've asked, and I love this idea that your role modelling the aspirational behaviour of the couple almost, aren't you? So as a friend and family member, you can set the tone for how you want the relationship for them to be, because you're in a better emotional space than they are, so you have that power.

Kate Daly: You have that ability to really be a game changer and model what a good breakup looks like. And I think that's such a powerful idea. I love that we've been able to talk about this because it's such a powerful idea that when you're so depleted and you're in the midst of a, a breakup, it's really hard. to model good behaviour.

Kate Daly: But if everybody around you is modelling the ideal scenario, then that gives you something to anchor your own behaviour against. And I think that's a really powerful kind of thought and something that we should really be trying to society in general to [00:27:00] really grasp because our language, everything about a breakup is all battle and hostile and negative and shame and guilt.

Kate Daly: And actually, we need to really. Change that and we need to show and demonstrate by what we do and what we say that a breakup can be a transition, not a disaster. And if we could just get that message across, but we need some help because we don't talk about it. Nobody knows what to do, but I love this idea of just modelling.

Kate Daly: You know, the change you want to be, I think that's something that I hope people listening to and friends and family in particular will be able to take away from today. I'm just conscious of time, Verity, we are running out, so very briefly, what are the kind of do's and don'ts of being a friend to somebody when they're going through a separation?

Verity Glasgow: Okay. So, going back to children, if there are children involved, help the parent to keep the child in the front of their mind. They might not, there are many other things [00:28:00] that will be in the front of their minds, so just help them in a nonjudgmental way to keep them in the centre of their decision-making processes.

Verity Glasgow: Be open minded, keep your virtual door open, be nonjudgmental, be supportive. We talked a bit about the practical stuff, you know, be there to help them practice a discussion that they're really worried about. you know, suggest writing stuff down that'll help them to work through it. Keep an eye out for harmful coping mechanisms.

Verity Glasgow: You know your friends, you know them. If you think that they're actually like, yeah, they're, they're, they're drinking a lot at the moment, they're trying to cope in that way. Just be there to support them and realize that they're only going to feel worse and it's not going to help them. You know, progress.

Verity Glasgow: So, keep an eye out for those more harmful coping mechanisms and ultimately, you know, working through it is going to be the only way to get through it. And that's really hard and really, really difficult when you're in it, but you will get through it. And I think just helping them know that there will be an end to this, they can work through [00:29:00] it.

Verity Glasgow: And really just coming back to you, your point there that you put really beautifully around that, creating that kind of taking the openness around supporting our friends and just really trying, because what I always think about is that we can, you know, one conversation at a time, we can create a change and I would really hope that, you know, by what you're doing and what you're doing in this really positive space, what Parents Promise are doing, what we're doing, um, I think if we can continue with these kind of positive modelling of behaviour that just because a relationship has ended, you know, that's not the end of the world.

Verity Glasgow: That's the beginning of a new chapter. It's a transition. It's, you know, there are so many positives in that for the mental health of the adults involved and the children involved that we can be positive about. And so, I think just creating that openness for us to be able to. as friends, support our friends, and like you say, maybe hook on to some helpful tips that you can [00:30:00] actually use, because it's not easy, because you haven't been through it before, and it feels a bit scary.

Verity Glasgow: So, um, yeah, creating that kind of culture change I think is really, really important.

Kate Daly: Yeah, we need to create the culture change so people can thrive in that sort of new reality, don't we? And yeah, I'm delighted that all the work you do is amazing. I loved One Plus One. It's a fabulous charity. Fabulous resources.

Kate Daly: If people are interested in finding out more and tapping into the resources, where can they find you, Verity?

Verity Glasgow: So, they can find us at OnePlus One, and we also have click relationships. org, which is a free place to go and, you know, get support and read our kind of expert articles around how you can help.

Verity Glasgow: yourself, how you can help others and there'll be tips like this on there.

Kate Daly: Fantastic. That's great. We'll make sure we get all of that in the show notes too. And if you've enjoyed this episode and want to listen to more of the podcast, then you can subscribe for updates by visiting thedivorcepodcast. [00:31:00] com or you can go onto your favourite listening platforms and subscribe and download.

Kate Daly: Thank you so much, Verity. It's been an absolute joy talking to you today and thank you everybody for listening. Thank you.